Was Algy insubordinate?

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Was Algy insubordinate?

Postby RAAF Spitfire Girl » 16 Apr 2014, 22:27

This topic was on the old forum and I thought it might be fun to explore again.

The question is, Was Algy insubordinate? Apart from "The Boob" (in WWI), I have no recollection of Algy ever addressing Biggles as "Sir" during WWII. As a good 2IC, he is always willing to tackle Biggles about decisions he (Algy) doesn't agree with and I suspect some of these more private conversations could have become reasonably heated. I think Algy is an excellent 2IC and a great support for Biggles. But the question remains, "Was he insubordinate?"
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Re: Was Algy insubordinate?

Postby Fairblue » 16 Apr 2014, 22:39

Well, I expect if we interpret it in the truest sense of the word and by Kings Regulations etc then yes, I suppose he was at times. But we all know there's no clear-cut black-and-white answer here. What was important was that he always came up trumps. He got the job done and could be relied on 100%.
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Re: Was Algy insubordinate?

Postby Kismet » 16 Apr 2014, 22:51

Insubordination is a somewhat grey area and depends on personalities. What is unacceptable to one CO is just the right side of the line to another. Biggles, in general, is tolerant and has liberal ideas on what is and isn't acceptable whilst expecting strong selfdiscipline and obedience to orders. Algy knows where the line is and doesn't cross it with Biggles but another CO might well find him insubordinate if Algy behaved in the same way to him.
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Re: Was Algy insubordinate?

Postby Fairblue » 16 Apr 2014, 22:56

Kismet wrote:Insubordination is a somewhat grey area and depends on personalities. What is unacceptable to one CO is just the right side of the line to another. Biggles, in general, is tolerant and has liberal ideas on what is and isn't acceptable whilst expecting strong selfdiscipline and obedience to orders. Algy knows where the line is and doesn't cross it with Biggles but another CO might well find him insubordinate if Algy behaved in the same way to him.

But Algy wouldn't, would he? It's all tied up in the relationship he has with Biggles. Although I can imagine if he had someone like Bitmore as a CO sparks would eventually fly!
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Re: Was Algy insubordinate?

Postby Kismet » 16 Apr 2014, 23:08

Fairblue wrote:
Kismet wrote:Insubordination is a somewhat grey area and depends on personalities. What is unacceptable to one CO is just the right side of the line to another. Biggles, in general, is tolerant and has liberal ideas on what is and isn't acceptable whilst expecting strong selfdiscipline and obedience to orders. Algy knows where the line is and doesn't cross it with Biggles but another CO might well find him insubordinate if Algy behaved in the same way to him.

But Algy wouldn't, would he? It's all tied up in the relationship he has with Biggles. Although I can imagine if he had someone like Bitmore as a CO sparks would eventually fly!


No, I agree, I think Algy would behave appropriately with another CO.

I think Algy has been insubordinate to Raymond.
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Re: Was Algy insubordinate?

Postby kylie_koyote » 16 Apr 2014, 23:38

Kismet wrote:
I think Algy has been insubordinate to Raymond.


Well they all were at the beginning of "Fails to Return", weren't they?

I think Algy knows when to defer to Biggles and when it's OK to voice his opinion.
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Re: Was Algy insubordinate?

Postby Inactive User 171 » 17 Apr 2014, 07:56

I do not think Algy was ever insubordinate if anything he was always very careful not to overstep the mark of course he does speak to Biggles as though he was his equal in books like Baltic but they have been best friends for over twenty years by then.

Ginger can be a bit insubordinate but mostly he just acts on impulse and realizes afterwards that it was not a good idea and Biggles would not be pleased :shock: I do not think Ginger has quite the same respect for Raymond that Algy does.
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Re: Was Algy insubordinate?

Postby SopwithCamel » 17 Apr 2014, 15:06

When it comes to Biggles I'm not so very sure that Algy realized that there was a line between Biggles the friend and Biggles the CO, meaning that he doesn't really see Biggles as a superior officer, and so he doesn't have a problem voicing his thoughts.

Of course, once you've saved someone's life numerous times, and had your life saved by them numerous times, and also perhaps spent some time living in their house and taking over their radio and going places with them and so on, it's very hard to act too "respectful" towards them.

And of course, Biggles isn't the sort of person (aside that one moment in The Boob) who stands on ceremony anyway, so of course Algy naturally would not be either.

Algy isn't really the kind of person who holds back anyway. Witness his anger at being posted in Flies East. (Although I notice he toned it down a bit when speaking to Raymond, so maybe he does know when to draw the line after all :lol: )

If Algy had someone like Bitmore for a CO...well.... :twisted:
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Re: Was Algy insubordinate?

Postby kylie_koyote » 17 Apr 2014, 16:37

I believe that, within reason of course, there is a degree of willfulness or intent to insubordination (as opposed to ignorance or habits of long years of association outside of uniform).

I don't think that Algy would (or could) ever be intentionally insubordinate to Biggles - he respects him too much. He might insult him jokingly but would never ever say anything mean spirited to or about him. (To someone like Bitmore, however, he would do so quite cheerfully)
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Re: Was Algy insubordinate?

Postby Inactive User 171 » 18 Apr 2014, 08:02

Yes I agree Algy would not be deliberately insubordinate. In Second Case he knows he should carry on with the mission when Biggles goes missing but he decides to spend some time looking for Biggles first.
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